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Post by Dave Hill on Oct 2, 2005 17:26:07 GMT
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wingnut
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Posts: 186
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Post by wingnut on Oct 2, 2005 18:57:44 GMT
Dave great pix somthing i can't do. I have taken the pix of the hose and up sized it. Going on what i see in the first and third pictures the crack by the no 2 looks as though the reinforcment is showing fail. The hole below confirms it has bulged out and that is a sure sign of a bubble that has burst at some time. Fail under section 3.6 method of inspection[MOI] d deterioration severe exposure of the reinforcement. RFR damaged or deteriorated.
The steering coupling again is a fail Steering control 2.1 MOI 4 RFR 4. This is the way i see it.
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Post by Mr. Tester on Oct 2, 2005 19:27:53 GMT
Agreed, excellent pics... I'd certainly fail a brake hose in that condition. A bit of gentle manipulation to test it would probably reveal the core, and it's in no ones interest to give the benefit of the doubt on such an important item. The steering UJ looks bad, but I'd have to see it under stress to decide. I'd definately give the customer a price to replace it!
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Steven
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Posts: 131
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Post by Steven on Oct 2, 2005 20:50:57 GMT
All the components should be replaced. But as far as an MOT goes, I'd say that they were all pass & advise.
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wingnut
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Posts: 186
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Post by wingnut on Oct 2, 2005 21:13:24 GMT
Steven am i not correct the manual states,Steering Control 2.1 RFR 4 "insecurity, excessive play or deterioration of a FLEXIBLE coupling or universal joint." Cripes i think the manual is written very cleverly. It could be a mine field.
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Steven
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Posts: 131
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Post by Steven on Oct 3, 2005 7:16:30 GMT
Where the manual states '...excessive play or deterioration of a flexible coupling...'
Does 'excessive' belong to both words ?
ie excessive (play or deterioration) excessive play, or excessive deterioration or excessive play, or just any kind of deterioration ?
This is another situation where the manual wording nees clarification as it is open to different interpretations.
What does the VTS device give as fail criteria for a flexible coupling ? I shall check today...
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rebel
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Posts: 32
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Post by rebel on Oct 3, 2005 12:44:47 GMT
I think this is one of those situations where different Vi's are likely to give different answers. In cases like this I break the rules and use common sense. If a questionable item isn't immediately safety related I would pass and advise, but with such critical safety related items (as above), I would fail every time. Rules or not - I will not be knowingly responsible for anybody getting seriously injured or killed.
If VOSA were to punish me for taking this attitude, then I wouldn't do the job - and I'd publicise the fact loudly.
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wingnut
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Posts: 186
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Post by wingnut on Oct 3, 2005 13:00:37 GMT
Rebel, well done spell it out COMMON SENSE. The new VTS device is in some things contradictry,still learning.
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NT
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Posts: 139
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Post by NT on Oct 3, 2005 17:03:48 GMT
Brake pipe in that condition I would definitely fail, as for the steering coupling, I would like to see it under load, but probably I would fail that as well.
p.s good pictures, and I see you use gloves as well. ;D
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wingnut
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Posts: 186
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Post by wingnut on Oct 3, 2005 17:53:21 GMT
To add more coal to the fire, it is a FAIL twice.Look at the two nuts one used as a lock nut. If i am correct the second lock nut is sat on just a few threads! ,this is not standard engineering practice, It should either have a single locknut or a caselated nut with split pin. Hummmmmmmmmmmm. Section 2.1 MOI 5 [security] 5 A retainy or locking device missing or insecure. How is this in the VT Device.
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Steven
Nominated Tester
Posts: 131
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Post by Steven on Oct 3, 2005 18:20:27 GMT
The VTS device RfR for 'Steering Control - Flexible Coupling' RfR ID failure text (advisory text)7212 has excessive play (has slight play)7213 is excessively deteriorated (is slightly deteriorated)7214 insecure 7215 retaining device missing 7220 cracked and unserviceable 7223 deformed and unserviceable (deformed but serviceable)So, where the manual states '...excessive play or deterioration of a flexible coupling...' this means 7212 excessive play and 7213 excessively deteriorated. Perhaps the '7220 cracked and unserviceable' might be an option to consider. It is in the VTS device RfR, but I can't seem to locate it in the testers manual
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Steven
Nominated Tester
Posts: 131
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Post by Steven on Oct 3, 2005 18:26:09 GMT
To add more coal to the fire, it is a FAIL twice.Look at the two nuts one used as a lock nut. If i am correct the second lock nut is sat on just a few threads! ,this is not standard engineering practice, It should either have a single locknut or a caselated nut with split pin. Hummmmmmmmmmmm. Section 2.1 MOI 5 [security] 5 A retainy or locking device missing or insecure. How is this in the VT Device. The inspection manual notes also state that we are not to test the type of locking device used, only that it is present and secure.
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Post by Dave Hill on Oct 3, 2005 19:15:17 GMT
Hi everybody
Before I respond to you all, I will wait to let this dicussion run its course to see what you others have to say. We were judged on a visit from Vosa on these items, so the decision is official.
Dave
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graham
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Post by graham on Oct 3, 2005 19:30:20 GMT
Hi everybody Before I respond to you all, I will wait to let this dicussion run its course to see what you others have to say. We were judged on a visit from Vosa on these items, so the decision is official. Dave Fail on BOTH for me (from the pics). And god help any VOSA guy who said different....... Graham
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wingnut
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Post by wingnut on Oct 4, 2005 2:35:45 GMT
Dave on the decision"whatever" comfirmation being official from VOSA how have they made it official? verbally or in writing. Whos car was it? Wingnut.
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rebel
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Post by rebel on Oct 4, 2005 12:13:20 GMT
"We were judged on a visit from Vosa on these items, so the decision is official."
I suspect that if you had ten visits from ten different VOSA vehicle inspectors you could get five instructions to fail and five to pass. - How official is that!
The VOSA inspector is simply another human being with a different job title, and your official answer will only be his opinion.
Perhaps the advise wording, (rather than "brake hose slightly deteriorated"), should read "brake hose absolutely shot to bits - but passable.
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Post by Dave Hill on Oct 4, 2005 19:14:31 GMT
Wingnut
To make this even more controversial, the vehicle in question is a W plate Bedford CF Ice Cream Van. I understand fully that this should have no influence on an MOT, but it seems harder to pass & advise defects, when you think about the consequences of youngsters hanging around a vehicle that you would not send out in that state, if it was in for a service.
Dave
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Post by wingnuts on Oct 4, 2005 20:24:11 GMT
would any of you like to send this vehicle out with a pass and advise?should be a straight fail on the hose and coupling.these would have failed any sensible test so who would take the rap if passed and advised in the near future when one or both failed
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Oct 4, 2005 22:12:42 GMT
To make this even more controversial, the vehicle in question is a W plate Bedford CF Ice Cream Van. I understand fully that this should have no influence on an MOT, but it seems harder to pass & advise defects, when you think about the consequences of youngsters hanging around a vehicle that you would not send out in that state, if it was in for a service. The problem that we testers often have is differentiating between Servicing standards and MOT standards. An MOT test shouldn't result in a vehicle emerging in an 'as good as new' condition. An MOT test is to check that the vehicle meets the minimum standards as laid down in the MOT testers manual. If a tester finds that an item doesn't quite meet the failure criteria, then he should pass and advise - thereby informing the customer of the fault, and with the introduction of computerisation, record in the database that the fault has been advised. As a tester, if you feel that any item renders the vehicle dangerous, use box c.
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wingnut
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Posts: 186
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Post by wingnut on Oct 4, 2005 22:33:01 GMT
So Tom what would you do in this case going on what you have seen in the pictures.With your knowledge of testing to meet within minimum standards etc. Pass, pass and advise, Fail.
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